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	<title>Comments for Good and Lost</title>
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	<link>http://goodandlost.org</link>
	<description>A Season in the Wind</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:50:45 -0400</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Satan, Demons, and the Black and White by tsraveling</title>
		<link>http://goodandlost.org/2010/05/27/satan-demons-and-the-black-and-white/comment-page-1/#comment-259</link>
		<dc:creator>tsraveling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodandlost.org/?p=807#comment-259</guid>
		<description>It can, actually. Richard Dawkins, among others, has discussed the distinction. The difference lies in the functioning of brain as &quot;reality simulator&quot; and the functioning of brain as instinct drive, a relic of our more primitive days.

When the brain functions as a simulator of reality, it tries to determine the way the world actually works, in order to accurately predict the future. Language gave us the ability to pass these simulation models down from generation to generation--the &quot;second replicator,&quot; which allowed a new type of evolution (cultural/intellectual) to begin.

So while our genetic models are very similar to primitive humans and prehumans, our mental (linguistic) models have advanced exponentially. The rational/irrational distinction is the distinction between mental simulation and genetic instinct. Einstein&#039;s theory of relativity, for example, is non-instinctual--ie, it doesn&#039;t &quot;make sense&quot; to our mammalian brains--but it is rational, because it is a mental model which can accurately predict the workings of the universe system.

Your claim assumes that the evolved biology of the human brain is the full expression of the closed system of the universe. Because it is an infinitesimal subset of that system, and because it is still evolving through the new vehicle of language as well as the old vehicle of genetics, the rational/irrational distinction becomes possible. It is useful (if not entirely accurate) to think of it as the difference between evolved and less-evolved modes of thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It can, actually. Richard Dawkins, among others, has discussed the distinction. The difference lies in the functioning of brain as &#8220;reality simulator&#8221; and the functioning of brain as instinct drive, a relic of our more primitive days.</p>
<p>When the brain functions as a simulator of reality, it tries to determine the way the world actually works, in order to accurately predict the future. Language gave us the ability to pass these simulation models down from generation to generation&#8211;the &#8220;second replicator,&#8221; which allowed a new type of evolution (cultural/intellectual) to begin.</p>
<p>So while our genetic models are very similar to primitive humans and prehumans, our mental (linguistic) models have advanced exponentially. The rational/irrational distinction is the distinction between mental simulation and genetic instinct. Einstein&#8217;s theory of relativity, for example, is non-instinctual&#8211;ie, it doesn&#8217;t &#8220;make sense&#8221; to our mammalian brains&#8211;but it is rational, because it is a mental model which can accurately predict the workings of the universe system.</p>
<p>Your claim assumes that the evolved biology of the human brain is the full expression of the closed system of the universe. Because it is an infinitesimal subset of that system, and because it is still evolving through the new vehicle of language as well as the old vehicle of genetics, the rational/irrational distinction becomes possible. It is useful (if not entirely accurate) to think of it as the difference between evolved and less-evolved modes of thought.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Satan, Demons, and the Black and White by Peter Schellhase</title>
		<link>http://goodandlost.org/2010/05/27/satan-demons-and-the-black-and-white/comment-page-1/#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Schellhase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:40:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodandlost.org/?p=807#comment-258</guid>
		<description>It is very interesting that a distinction is being made between &#039;rational&#039; and &#039;irrational&#039; human actions, if both are a result of the same evolutionary process; two sides of the same coin as it were. This rather suggests a dialectic movement resulting from the interaction of the two, and examples of this could be found through history. However the ability to recognize and discriminate between &#039;rational&#039; and &#039;irrational&#039; actions is one that should not exist in a closed system; the distinction rests upon Platonic conceptions of an unchanging natural order in the universe which can be accessed by human reason. This natural order is not the same thing as supernatural revelation--quite the opposite--but all the same it can&#039;t co-exist with the evolutionary process model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is very interesting that a distinction is being made between &#8216;rational&#8217; and &#8216;irrational&#8217; human actions, if both are a result of the same evolutionary process; two sides of the same coin as it were. This rather suggests a dialectic movement resulting from the interaction of the two, and examples of this could be found through history. However the ability to recognize and discriminate between &#8216;rational&#8217; and &#8216;irrational&#8217; actions is one that should not exist in a closed system; the distinction rests upon Platonic conceptions of an unchanging natural order in the universe which can be accessed by human reason. This natural order is not the same thing as supernatural revelation&#8211;quite the opposite&#8211;but all the same it can&#8217;t co-exist with the evolutionary process model.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Satan, Demons, and the Black and White by tsraveling</title>
		<link>http://goodandlost.org/2010/05/27/satan-demons-and-the-black-and-white/comment-page-1/#comment-257</link>
		<dc:creator>tsraveling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodandlost.org/?p=807#comment-257</guid>
		<description>Well, yes. In fact, it is when humans are behaving most irrationally that, often enough, they behave most predictably--in other words, most according to various neurological impulses left over from our days running away from lions and hunting mammoths with rocks.

Humans are as much part of this universe as everything else in it, and I would be very surprised if we possess anything that is beyond it.

Honestly though, is that such a bad thing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, yes. In fact, it is when humans are behaving most irrationally that, often enough, they behave most predictably&#8211;in other words, most according to various neurological impulses left over from our days running away from lions and hunting mammoths with rocks.</p>
<p>Humans are as much part of this universe as everything else in it, and I would be very surprised if we possess anything that is beyond it.</p>
<p>Honestly though, is that such a bad thing?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Satan, Demons, and the Black and White by Peter Schellhase</title>
		<link>http://goodandlost.org/2010/05/27/satan-demons-and-the-black-and-white/comment-page-1/#comment-256</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Schellhase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 18:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodandlost.org/?p=807#comment-256</guid>
		<description>Tim, that really is the key question: whether there is any human experience &#039;beyond th realms of reason.&#039; For that reason I&#039;d like to keep the distinction between &#039;rational&#039; and &#039;political&#039; experience vague, since I actually wonder whether there is any difference. Now it is beyond disputing that people do not always or often act in a way that one might consider &#039;rational&#039;--yet even so we may put them in the category of &#039;rational&#039; actions because they are pretty much what we expect from human nature. Thus the political and ethical aspects of human life, one might argue, are within the &#039;natural&#039; or &#039;rational&#039; sphere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, that really is the key question: whether there is any human experience &#8216;beyond th realms of reason.&#8217; For that reason I&#8217;d like to keep the distinction between &#8216;rational&#8217; and &#8216;political&#8217; experience vague, since I actually wonder whether there is any difference. Now it is beyond disputing that people do not always or often act in a way that one might consider &#8216;rational&#8217;&#8211;yet even so we may put them in the category of &#8216;rational&#8217; actions because they are pretty much what we expect from human nature. Thus the political and ethical aspects of human life, one might argue, are within the &#8216;natural&#8217; or &#8216;rational&#8217; sphere.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Satan, Demons, and the Black and White by tsraveling</title>
		<link>http://goodandlost.org/2010/05/27/satan-demons-and-the-black-and-white/comment-page-1/#comment-254</link>
		<dc:creator>tsraveling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodandlost.org/?p=807#comment-254</guid>
		<description>Although I agree that God (Allah,Shiva,Karma,Fate) can often serve as a scapegoat as well, I&#039;d have to disagree as to motivation.

Namely, that I think the scapegoat effect appears most often when we fail to achieve mastery over our own fate. It takes strength to control the path of one&#039;s own life, and those who achieve it often give credit to a higher power of some sort, however mistakenly.

Those who fail to achieve that mastery need someone to blame, for, being too weak to master themselves, they are often enough too weak to accept their weakness. Thus, the devil made me do it.

As to the last paragraph, it&#039;s an interesting point, and one I believed myself for a number of years--and I like how you defined &quot;political&quot; as a different event from &quot;rational&quot;. This seems accurate enough, given the way large herds of humans tend to operate.

To be serious, though, I no longer believe there is any human experience to be had beyond the realms of reason (ie, the operation of this universe-system). I haven&#039;t quite figured out what this means for morality yet, but I intend to write something on it soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I agree that God (Allah,Shiva,Karma,Fate) can often serve as a scapegoat as well, I&#8217;d have to disagree as to motivation.</p>
<p>Namely, that I think the scapegoat effect appears most often when we fail to achieve mastery over our own fate. It takes strength to control the path of one&#8217;s own life, and those who achieve it often give credit to a higher power of some sort, however mistakenly.</p>
<p>Those who fail to achieve that mastery need someone to blame, for, being too weak to master themselves, they are often enough too weak to accept their weakness. Thus, the devil made me do it.</p>
<p>As to the last paragraph, it&#8217;s an interesting point, and one I believed myself for a number of years&#8211;and I like how you defined &#8220;political&#8221; as a different event from &#8220;rational&#8221;. This seems accurate enough, given the way large herds of humans tend to operate.</p>
<p>To be serious, though, I no longer believe there is any human experience to be had beyond the realms of reason (ie, the operation of this universe-system). I haven&#8217;t quite figured out what this means for morality yet, but I intend to write something on it soon.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Satan, Demons, and the Black and White by Peter Schellhase</title>
		<link>http://goodandlost.org/2010/05/27/satan-demons-and-the-black-and-white/comment-page-1/#comment-253</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Schellhase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodandlost.org/?p=807#comment-253</guid>
		<description>As a philosopher, I agree with you; however as a Christian I have another insight which I believe is drawn from Divine revelation. If he wished to do so, God would have no motivation not to portray Himself as our champion against the wily Satan. In fact, Scripture is often ambivalent about this.

In Genesis, God permits the temptation of our first parents, judging both them and the Serpent but intimating that the judgment of the Serpent would not come from him directly but through the Woman&#039;s offspring. In Job, possibly the earliest written of any book in Scripture, the devil is evil to be sure, but completely limited by God&#039;s will. Ultimately in the narrative, he slides out of the picture. God seems to be using him merely as the setup for a teachable moment between him, Job, and Job&#039;s friends. Again we see God placing human beings at a high value, but the narrative does not support the kind of Manichean duality into which we human beings so readily assign God and the Devil.

This duality you describe (and wisely disparage) is perhaps a manifestation of our own bid as human beings to achieve mastery of our own fate--by playing off God and the Devil against each other for our own ends. We think that by managing them in this way, we can carve out a domain of autonomy or self-rule within the universe.

It is just this tendency of ours which is the concern of Scripture. In reproving Job&#039;s friends, God is reacting against the notion that man can live comfortably in his own closed ethical universe. He confounds their assumptions about natural justice.

Thus, moral philosophy, though able to reach a certain level of correctness within its own rational boundaries, isolates itself by definition from revelation and is thus without insight into those things that occur outside of rational and political experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a philosopher, I agree with you; however as a Christian I have another insight which I believe is drawn from Divine revelation. If he wished to do so, God would have no motivation not to portray Himself as our champion against the wily Satan. In fact, Scripture is often ambivalent about this.</p>
<p>In Genesis, God permits the temptation of our first parents, judging both them and the Serpent but intimating that the judgment of the Serpent would not come from him directly but through the Woman&#8217;s offspring. In Job, possibly the earliest written of any book in Scripture, the devil is evil to be sure, but completely limited by God&#8217;s will. Ultimately in the narrative, he slides out of the picture. God seems to be using him merely as the setup for a teachable moment between him, Job, and Job&#8217;s friends. Again we see God placing human beings at a high value, but the narrative does not support the kind of Manichean duality into which we human beings so readily assign God and the Devil.</p>
<p>This duality you describe (and wisely disparage) is perhaps a manifestation of our own bid as human beings to achieve mastery of our own fate&#8211;by playing off God and the Devil against each other for our own ends. We think that by managing them in this way, we can carve out a domain of autonomy or self-rule within the universe.</p>
<p>It is just this tendency of ours which is the concern of Scripture. In reproving Job&#8217;s friends, God is reacting against the notion that man can live comfortably in his own closed ethical universe. He confounds their assumptions about natural justice.</p>
<p>Thus, moral philosophy, though able to reach a certain level of correctness within its own rational boundaries, isolates itself by definition from revelation and is thus without insight into those things that occur outside of rational and political experience.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Satan, Demons, and the Black and White by Shreya</title>
		<link>http://goodandlost.org/2010/05/27/satan-demons-and-the-black-and-white/comment-page-1/#comment-247</link>
		<dc:creator>Shreya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodandlost.org/?p=807#comment-247</guid>
		<description>amen

(your comment was a bit too short. please try again. I&#039;m back making this comment longer.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>amen</p>
<p>(your comment was a bit too short. please try again. I&#8217;m back making this comment longer.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on To Istanbul by Magic by Mehmet</title>
		<link>http://goodandlost.org/2010/01/29/to-istanbul-by-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-246</link>
		<dc:creator>Mehmet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 09:10:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodandlost.org/?p=689#comment-246</guid>
		<description>Really nice photos, for more about Istanbul check this out; http://www.best-of-istanbul.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really nice photos, for more about Istanbul check this out; <a href="http://www.best-of-istanbul.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.best-of-istanbul.com</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on All Roads Lead Through New York by Laura Gerencser</title>
		<link>http://goodandlost.org/2010/04/21/all-roads-lead-through-new-york/comment-page-1/#comment-244</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura Gerencser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 23:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodandlost.org/?p=792#comment-244</guid>
		<description>I would love to go to New York someday!!!Sigh!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would love to go to New York someday!!!Sigh!</p>
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		<title>Comment on All Roads Lead Through New York by Shreya</title>
		<link>http://goodandlost.org/2010/04/21/all-roads-lead-through-new-york/comment-page-1/#comment-243</link>
		<dc:creator>Shreya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Apr 2010 21:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodandlost.org/?p=792#comment-243</guid>
		<description>It sounds fantastic. Can&#039;t wait.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds fantastic. Can&#8217;t wait.</p>
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